Death penalties do not deter crime?

In light of the pending execution (25 years later albeit) I decided to look further into capital punishment, several studies published stated that capital punishment does not deter crime.

I can think of at least 5 cases in last year where life sentence prisoners have harmed/killed other prisoners or guards, yet I defy anyone to find a single example of an executed prisoner accosting anyone.

Touche!

Good point. I think the fact that a death sentence takes up to 25 years to happen it loses a lot of its WOW factor if you will. Now if they took lets say that Sloop guy and cut his arms off and watch him bleed to death in times square that may deter crime a little more. It may be barbaric, but I grantee people would think twice before committing severe crimes.

jahan wrote:

Good point. I think the fact that a death sentence takes up to 25 years to happen it loses a lot of its WOW factor if you will. Now if they took lets say that Sloop guy and cut his arms off and watch him bleed to death in times square that may deter crime a little more. It may be barbaric, but I grantee people would think twice before committing severe crimes.

This has already been proven......Look at the crime statistics for hard core Muslim countries... Theft results in a cut off hand... Adultery results in a cut off something else.. murder and rape result in a public beheading... They have extremely low crime rates.....

hyperduc wrote:

In light of the pending execution (25 years later albeit) I decided to look further into capital punishment, several studies published stated that capital punishment does not deter crime.

I can think of at least 5 cases in last year where life sentence prisoners have harmed/killed other prisoners or guards, yet I defy anyone to find a single example of an executed prisoner accosting anyone.

If capitol punishment were a deterent to capitol crime it seems to me people wouldn't still be committing capitol crimes considering the USSC reinstituded the death penalty in 1976.

plottrunner wrote:

Look at the crime statistics for hard core Muslim countries... They have extremely low crime rates.....

I took you up on that and found that Saudi Arabia has an overall low official crime rate, but Muslim countries, in general, have moderate to heavy crime rates — not dissimilar to the rest of the world. The exceptions being the Muslim countries of Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan and Somalia, where the violent crime and murder rate is pretty much off the charts.

Europe, as a whole, has one of the world's lowest crime rates. All European countries, with the exception of Belarus, have no death penalty. Belarus, interestingly enough has the highest crime rate in Europe (outside of Russia). Iceland and Liechtenstein have the world's lowest murder rates — both are European and have no death penalty. Iceland has not executed a prisoner since 1830 and Liechtenstein abolished the death penalty in 1987. South America, by the way, has the highest crime rate of any continent.

The point I'm trying to make is that, with some exceptions, the countries with the harshest punishments tend to actually have higher crime rates. I'm not claiming a cause-and-effect relationship here. For all I know, countries with naturally low crime rates don't need death penalties and long prison sentences, but it's far from obvious that harsh penalties deter crime. Long prison sentences obviously keep criminals out of society, but the evidence for long or harsh sentences deterring crime is sketchy and mixed at best.

You have to take into consideration the Muslim countries you listed are pretty much in a state or war or are run by war lords.... The Muslim countries that I referred to are the one with an established government in place that have laws in place and public executions. I'm not saying this is a good thing as I personally do not believe Capitol Punishment is mans right but that's another topic for another section of this forum... I do feel that cutting off someones hand for theft would probably be a lot bigger deterrent than a class B misdemeanor lol.....

Pete how much of those crime rates in those countries consist of suicide bombers? Because I don't think a death penalty would be much of a problem with them.

luv2fsh&hnt wrote:

hyperduc wrote:

In light of the pending execution (25 years later albeit) I decided to look further into capital punishment, several studies published stated that capital punishment does not deter crime.

I can think of at least 5 cases in last year where life sentence prisoners have harmed/killed other prisoners or guards, yet I defy anyone to find a single example of an executed prisoner accosting anyone.

If capitol punishment were a deterent to capitol crime it seems to me people wouldn't still be committing capitol crimes considering the USSC reinstituded the death penalty in 1976.

Is it the perfect deterrent, no, do all of the sates actually use the death penalty, no, do we institute it correctly, no.

25 years on death row for a man who shot someone in an open court in front of many witnesses is ridiculous.

Pete, you seem like a smart guy, so it surprises me that you would even suggest anything as silly as following Europe's lead.

hyperduc wrote:

Pete, you seem like a smart guy, so it surprises me that you would even suggest anything as dumb as suggesting that we follow Europe's lead.

I didn't suggest we follow anybody's lead. I just looked up some statistics and found them interesting.

Comparing the rate of violent crime in countries that do not allow their citizens to own firearms (and in some cases knives), is quite misleading, especially when you do so to illustrate capital punishment's influence on crime.

hyperduc wrote:

Comparing the rate of violent crime in countries that do not allow their citizens to own firearms (and in some cases knives), is quite misleading, especially when you do so to illustrate capital punishment's influence on crime.

You've just suggested that tight gun control leads to lower violent crime and homicide rates? I would have expected you to argue otherwise. You damn liberals will twist any statistics to support your points of view!

25 years to wait for a death sentence to carry out, is ridiculous, especially the court room was full of eye witnesses. It's not like they were going to find any "new" evidence, and some how prove him innocent.....

Pete wrote:

You've just suggested that tight gun control leads to lower violent crime and homicide rates? I would have expected you to argue otherwise. You damn liberals will twist any statistics to support your points of view!

I'm sure it would be a hell of a lot harder to kill people if guns were nearly impossible to get and drive by knife attacks might spiral out of control. BUT and this is a big but, The American architects felt strongly enough about guns rights to include them as the second item in their constitution.

Liberal, yeah thats funny. You trying to start a fight with me too pete ?

hyperduc wrote:

Liberal, yeah thats funny. You trying to start a fight with me too pete ?

Nah, anybody who rides a Ducati can't be all bad.

plottrunner wrote:

jahan wrote:

Good point. I think the fact that a death sentence takes up to 25 years to happen it loses a lot of its WOW factor if you will. Now if they took lets say that Sloop guy and cut his arms off and watch him bleed to death in times square that may deter crime a little more. It may be barbaric, but I grantee people would think twice before committing severe crimes.

This has already been proven......Look at the crime statistics for hard core Muslim countries... Theft results in a cut off hand... Adultery results in a cut off something else.. murder and rape result in a public beheading... They have extremely low crime rates.....

I call B.S.

Afghanistan has an absolutely barbaric "justice" system and there is PLENTY of crime. People are just desperate enough to risk it or powerful enough to get away with it.

Anyway, does anybody really think, "I'd wack this guy if I'd only get life, but not if I'm going to get the chair?" Nah, either they don't think they'll get caught or they aren't thinking at all or they are so PO'd they just don't care.

Trooper wrote:

plottrunner wrote:

jahan wrote:

Good point. I think the fact that a death sentence takes up to 25 years to happen it loses a lot of its WOW factor if you will. Now if they took lets say that Sloop guy and cut his arms off and watch him bleed to death in times square that may deter crime a little more. It may be barbaric, but I grantee people would think twice before committing severe crimes.

This has already been proven......Look at the crime statistics for hard core Muslim countries... Theft results in a cut off hand... Adultery results in a cut off something else.. murder and rape result in a public beheading... They have extremely low crime rates.....

I call B.S.

Afghanistan has an absolutely barbaric "justice" system and there is PLENTY of crime. People are just desperate enough to risk it or powerful enough to get away with it.

Anyway, does anybody really think, "I'd wack this guy if I'd only get life, but not if I'm going to get the chair?" Nah, either they don't think they'll get caught or they aren't thinking at all or they are so PO'd they just don't care.

This is what scares me about hyperduc. He seems angry and unstable enough to do something irrational.

I have been thinking about this a lot the last couple of days that it is plastered all over the news and I find my self changing my tune. I think the death penalty in its current state should go away. The reason I say this is, what purpose does it serve, when someone dies for a crime 25 years after the fact and tons of tax payers dollars are wasted on appeals, it would make more sense to put them away in solitary confinement for life, that would be much more of a punishment than getting out the easy way. This guy is making a mockery of the system pretending to be a martyr. He is fasting for the last 48 hours, he purposely chose firing squad, he is making the state look silly in my opinion. He is so far removed from the crime, time wise, that no one remembers what he even did and start felling sorry for him. If they would have taken care of him with in a year of the crime, then I would have been for it, but at this point it solves nothing IMO. I guess that isn't completely true, the family will have closure which is very important.

jahan wrote:

If they would have taken care of him with in a year of the crime, then I would have been for it, but at this point it solves nothing IMO. I guess that isn't completely true, the family will have closure which is very important.

Texas now has a fast lane for death penalty cases in which three persons witnessed the murder, 90 days after sentencing and its good bye dirt bag.

Yet another way in which the nation should follow TX.

Don't mess with Texas!

hyperduc wrote:

jahan wrote:

If they would have taken care of him with in a year of the crime, then I would have been for it, but at this point it solves nothing IMO. I guess that isn't completely true, the family will have closure which is very important.

Texas now has a fast lane for death penalty cases in which three persons witnessed the murder, 90 days after sentencing and its good bye dirt bag.

Yet another way in which the nation should follow TX.

Interesting, I like it. I believe that would be more effective, but Utah's in ineffective in my opinion.

I am against the death penalty in any circumstance. Not because I don't understand the pain of the surviving victims or empathise with their pain. To the contrary I am a surviving victim of murder. My dad was shot and killed in Salt Lake City in 1978. I was 11 years old and his death left a hole in my inner being that resides there today. There is no such thing as closure. The man that shot my dad did his time and walks free today. Had he been put to death by the state it would have brought no more closure to me than I have today 32 years after the crime. Had my fathers murderer been put to death the hole in my soul and the pain I feel would still be there. All that would have been accomplished is the pain I have lived with would have been visited on his children. When we as a society put a criminal to death all we do is create more pain and suffering for innocents. This is one of the reasons I have a disdain for the legal system and I am loathe to ask for police assistance I will just take care of things myself. Thats not to say that if somebody committed a crime against my wife or daughter I would not seek out my own retribution as after what happened with my dad I resolved to never leave the punishment up to the incompetent folks that work in the legal system.

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