Education

This is the forum frequently asked questions section and will always be a work in progress.

Why create such a forum?

Several reason's have lead me to create this forum but the biggest is the over moderation and censorship on previous forums that I have visited has inspired to to create a forum solely about today's politics. Today's politics are more controversial than they ever have been and …

The Rules here are very simple

-No Attacking a person's race and/or religion
-No Personal Threats (this includes the politicians)
-Stay on Topic
-No links to porn sites and nudity
-Swearing is allowed but it has to be appropriate and NO F-bombs and other grossly vulgar words

-Don't be a douchebag

Most offensives will get a warning, however you may not even get a warning and you may be banned, …

Subject: Education Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:58 am

So, 2 of my three kids started school this week and education is a great concern to my wife and I. There have been several articles written this past week due to Jed Bush coming to town. Interesting how each news entity had a different take.

KSL- http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12150074&hl=9
- they focused on class size
- 50 million to reduce classroom size by one, WTF, that number seems very extreme to me

SLTRIB- http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50160273-76/schools-florida-utah-bush.html.csp
- grade each school, can we grade our government?

All the others just reported the basics of what was discussed. Anyways I just thought this would be a great discussion, there is plenty in these two articles to discuss!

Subject: Re: Education Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:03 am

I home school my three youngest kids. Only the oldest goes to public school. She is a senior and is my step-daughter, so I was over-ruled on pulling her from public school. I see far more negatives to public education than positives, and I can't think of a scenario where I will willingly send my kids back into that cesspool known as the public school system!

Class size has NO correlation to the quality of education a child gets. This is nothing more than a vehicle used by the unions to get more funding, which means more control/power.

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:41 am

Curious Pro, if your kids decide they want to go to public school, it that an option or no?

Were you schooled at home yourself?

What do you think are the advantages of educating children in the home? How does a home schooled child get a diploma and start looking at higher education?

Do you think a child schooled at home has the same level of opportunities that exist in a public or private school, both educational and social? I'm assuming you don't profess to have the ability to teach every subject offered in a public high school i.e. calculus, honors classes, AP classses, various arts etc.

Are you ever concerned that your children will not be prepared for the outside world when they are cut loose from the nest?

Sorry for all the questions but I find the home school idea to be a curious one. One of the (many) fundemental differences between my ex-wife and I was that she wanted to home school our 2 children and I did not think it was a good idea. I won that battle when I got full custody after our divorce. My kids love school and do very well, even my son with ADHD who just started 7th grade last week. I have had a very good overall experience with all the teachers and administrators I have dealt with in the Alpine school district. What are your main issues with public education?

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:01 am

ScottyP wrote:: Curious Pro, if your kids decide they want to go to public school, it that an option or no? We told them they can go to high school if they so chose.

Were you schooled at home yourself? Nope. I wouldn't home school my kids if the options were as limited as they were back when I attended K-12. There are so many different options right now, that we are able to pick and chose and tailor fit what/how/when we teach our kids.

What do you think are the advantages of educating children in the home? How does a home schooled child get a diploma and start looking at higher education? I am a firm believer that every kid learns in different ways and at different paces. In a public classroom, whether there are 10 or 30 students, the teacher can NOT teach each student at their optimum pace. Some kids learn quickly, but with 10-30 students a teacher MUST teach all the kids at the same pace. Some kids struggle with math, while others excel at it, but the public teacher MUST teach them ALL at the same pace, or (sadly a common occurrence) simply send the subject matter home for the parents to help with. Whereas my children can learn as fast/slow as they choose, they can fly through a subject that comes easy to them, and take their time on a subject they struggle with. And, once the day of school is over, it is OVER, NO home work.
As for getting a diploma, not sure what you're questioning. Every student, whether taught in a public setting, a private setting, or in the home, must meet certain requirements.

Do you think a child schooled at home has the same level of opportunities that exist in a public or private school, both educational and social? I'm assuming you don't profess to have the ability to teach every subject offered in a public high school i.e. calculus, honors classes, AP classses, various arts etc. Educationally, I believe home schooled children are at a HUGE advantage. They can advance to higher grade subjects if so inclined, they are able to get far more hands on education/training, and they have a better learning environment in which to absorb things into their minds of clay. The great thing about the internet is it opens the entire world up to kids wishing to learn ANY subject. Also, we can set it up so they take those 'honors classes', and certainly AP classes, at the local school or college without being a 'full time' public school student.

Are you ever concerned that your children will not be prepared for the outside world when they are cut loose from the nest? Actually, this is the primary reason we decided to take our children OUT of the public school system. Two years ago I walked to the school to get my then 3rd grader after school. It was a nice sunny fall afternoon. Some kids where let out early and playing in the school yard. I listened to foul language that NO 8-9 year old should be hearing on a daily basis. I am no Pollyanna, but I don't think children at the K-6th grade level should be learning about sex from the other students on the playground. They should be able to be kids, not learning how to "dry hump". not learning how to be bullies, not learning how to be disrespectful to adults/parents, and not learning how to dress/act like morons. My kids play sports, where they gets tons of interaction with other kids. They have field trips weekly, where they interact with other kids in learning environments. They attend church on Sunday, where they learn how to treat others in kind/appropriate ways. What do they 'miss out on'? They don;t learn how to be bullies, be submissive to bullies, about sex from water-head kids, how to settle for mediocrity, and how to be lazy. I think I can live with that.

Sorry for all the questions but I find the home school idea to be a curious one. One of the (many) fundemental differences between my ex-wife and I was that she wanted to home school our 2 children and I did not think it was a good idea. I won that battle when I got full custody after our divorce. My kids love school and do very well, even my son with ADHD who just started 7th grade last week. I have had a very good overall experience with all the teachers and administrators I have dealt with in the Alpine school district. What are your main issues with public education? I get where you're coming from. My ex-wife tried to prevent me from home-schooling my now 10 year old daughter. I have full custody of her now, so my daughter gets to be taught at home.
My main issues with public schools:
1]The teachers are forced to 'dumb down' the class to the slowest kid in the class (NCLB).
2]Teaching curriculum is HORRIBLE in public schools.
3]The PC crap that is prevalent throughout the public school system. I would send my kids to a private school in a heart beat if I found one near by (NONE in Tooele County).
4]Much of the what is taught in the public schools is garbage. What they teach about history is BS and slanted to the progressive mindset big time. The way they teach math/spelling drives me crazy. In ONE year my two 10 years old girls went up two full grades in math/spelling. They both read at 9th grade levels, and they LOVE to read. The single best way for one to learn is by reading. It is my belief that a person who excels at math and reading can excel at ANY thing.
5]My kids where coming home from a full day of school and doing on average an hour of homework, in the 3rd grade! Now, my kids start school at 9:00 am and are down with EVERYTHING, including 'homework' by 2:00 pm. That allows they to develop 'social skills'.

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:05 pm

Great post pro.
Education Headbanger

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:18 pm

Holy Shit!!!!!! Reminds me of AMERICAN HISTORY X

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:55 pm

voiceofreason wrote:: Holy Shit!!!!!! Reminds me of AMERICAN HISTORY X

Why? Because you watch the prison shower scene over and over and just can't get it out of your head? silent

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:42 pm

Gordy, I had to do a google search to figure out what you were referring to. I must confess to having never watched that movie.

As for your reference to said movie, what did I post that scares you so? Is it that I am not willing to be satisfied with mediocrity in regards to education for my children? Or is it that I am not willing to let my kids be taught how to be like the rest of the sheeple? A very successful mentor of mine has a saying: "If you want to be successful, don't do what everyone else is doing." I want my kids to be successful, so my wife and I are willing to do what we can to give them every possible tool to become whatever they wish in life. Rather than being satisfied by the public schools being glorified baby-sitters who instill values/morals that differ from ours, we spend time each evening preparing the next days lessons for our kids. This does a few excellent things; 1]It gives us more time together working on a common cause. 2]Teaching our kids at home allows my wife, whose time on this orb is short, to spend more time molding her children and instilling fond memories of their loving mother that would be missed if they were shipped to the germ factory. 3]We get to KNOW that are kids are learning and progressing toward adulthood with solid values/morals/insight/wisdom that will give them an edge over those who are simply dropped off at the school each day.

If that seems radical/extreme to you, I am GLAD. That means we are not following the masses, which is a GOOD thing. cheers

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:50 pm

I would challenge every one of you to take this flick in... It's R so leave the kids out.

Definitely top 5 in my cinema library!!! Would do 99% of you some good!!!

FREE YOUR MIND AND YOUR ASS WILL FOLLOW

BART.. this has nothing to do with being sheeple. Has everything to do with life and the way we as humanity co-exist. What if your kids end up working for an employer that happens to be part of a union??? What if stem cell research turns out a cure for cancer and you have an affected loved one??? Are you going to stick to your extremist guns and watch them die??? If you did I'd shoot you myself and get them treatment!!!

This is the other side of life you are taking upon yourself to DECIDE for your loved ones... No Free Agency, no freedom, total dictatorship and basically spoonfed Bart propaganda. Not very LIBERTARIAN now are we???

If we raise our kids with our values and give them freedom to choose and MAKE HUGE MISTAKES WITHOUT BEING BAILED EVERY TIME THE SHIT HITS THE FAN we as a society will have less brain dead victims and more members of society that don't have to have their hands held to take a piss!!! If we as parents do this right the proper values morals and responsibilities will be instilled and life will be great for all.

My kids were private schooled through Elementary and I'll tell ya that both are excelling. One academics comes easy the other not so much!!! Now if I wanted to be a little bitch I could blame public schools, public school teachers, or curriculum on her short comings... Personally as an engaged parent I MAKE SURE shit gets done!!! I'm not a victim and neither is she.

My Father taught in the Public School system for over 50 years and my wife has taught privately for over 10. Let me know next time when you need an opinion on education.

Subject: Re: Education Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:22 pm

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions Pro. You have left me with little doubt that you and your wife are doing a great job educating and raising your children. Many of the shortcomings you outlined with the public school system are undeniable but the number one shortcoming is with the parents. Any parent who thinks they can send their kid off to school and expect them to receive an education without any further involvement is sadly mistaken. With my son's additional needs I know this all too well.

I know of a family where several of the children were taught at home. Thir education was clearly lacking and a few of them made very poor life choices early on (teen pregnancy) and none of them pursued any type of higher education.

You are correct that in the age of information there are many more educational resources than ever with the inrternet and software programs so I can see where a parent utilizing this technology has many advantages over home schoolers of the past. Sounds like you are doing it right.

One other question I have is do you teach your kids about things that you may not personally believe in? I don't profess to know your personal beliefs but for example, if you are a devout christian who believes in the old testament do you teach them about evolution or ancient history that is in direct contradiction to the bible? Are certain subjects that are taught in school one of your motivating factors in pulling your kids out and teaching them at home?

Subject: Re: Education Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:26 am

voiceofreason wrote:: BART.. this has nothing to do with being sheeple. Has everything to do with life and the way we as humanity co-exist. What if your kids end up working for an employer that happens to be part of a union??? What if stem cell research turns out a cure for cancer and you have an affected loved one??? Are you going to stick to your extremist guns and watch them die??? If you did I'd shoot you myself and get them treatment!!! WTF are you ranting about? You know me better than this! I do NOT care where my kids end up working as long as it is legal and ethical. Good hell, I belonged to a union for 10+ years, so get off your little soap box! As for stem-cell research. I support such research, I just object STRONGLY to it being funded with tax payer funds.

This is the other side of life you are taking upon yourself to DECIDE for your loved ones... No Free Agency, no freedom, total dictatorship and basically spoonfed Bart propaganda. Not very LIBERTARIAN now are we??? I can't believe you even type such BULLSHIT! Are you seriously saying a FIVE YEAR OLD should be given full say on where/when he gets an education? As for my two 10 year old daughters, my wife and I sat them down and asked for their input and TOGETHER we made the decision to go the route we did. When they act up or complain, as ALL children do, we threaten to send them back to the public school and they straighten right up. They LOVE being schooled at home!!!! That you even imply that my house is ran as a dictatorship and we preach 'propaganda' shows your ignorance. Honestly, I know you like to spew hyperbole to get a rise out of people, but this is going beyond such and is to the point of being intentionally offensive.

If we raise our kids with our values and give them freedom to choose and MAKE HUGE MISTAKES WITHOUT BEING BAILED EVERY TIME THE SHIT HITS THE FAN we as a society will have less brain dead victims and more members of society that don't have to have their hands held to take a piss!!! If we as parents do this right the proper values morals and responsibilities will be instilled and life will be great for all. Tell me, when have you EVER seen/read/heard of me advocating bailing out our kids every time them make a unwise choice? You KNOW NOTHING about me apparently! Ask my 20 year old son if that is the case. If this is the way you are going to direct comments toward me I am DONE responding to you.

My kids were private schooled through Elementary and I'll tell ya that both are excelling. One academics comes easy the other not so much!!! Now if I wanted to be a little bitch I could blame public schools, public school teachers, or curriculum on her short comings... Personally as an engaged parent I MAKE SURE shit gets done!!! I'm not a victim and neither is she. Did you just call me a "little bitch"? Really? Let me get this right, I see where my kids are falling short and I take action instead of just 'bitching', and that somehow makes me a "little bitch"? Are you serious? How is me taking things on by the horns 'playing the victim'? Tell me you are ranting like a loon because of a severe head injury, and that you are not serious!

My Father taught in the Public School system for over 50 years and my wife has taught privately for over 10. Let me know next time when you need an opinion on education. Not to be rude, by what does your dad having been a public school teacher have to do with anything? Are you saying that as a parent I am not qualified to have an opinion on education for my children, and that I need to leave it to the 'experts'? This is the mentality that has lead our public education system into the crapper. You are a collectivist, I get that. That is why you like Obama. I am an individualist, that is why I do NOT like Obama. I feel that my wife and I know what is best for our children, even more so than someone who was a public educator for 50 years!

Subject: Re: Education Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:44 am

ScottyP wrote:: One other question I have is do you teach your kids about things that you may not personally believe in? I don't profess to know your personal beliefs but for example, if you are a devout christian who believes in the old testament do you teach them about evolution or ancient history that is in direct contradiction to the bible? Are certain subjects that are taught in school one of your motivating factors in pulling your kids out and teaching them at home?

Our kids have a curriculum that meets the standards by the state. AN example: We are teaching our kids from a history manual published by Oxford University Press. It is titled; "A History of Us". On page 13 it states the following: "About 50,000 years ago, two kinds of upright creatures walked the earth. Both were part of a species known as Homo Sapiens, which means "thinking man." Some where Neanderthals; some were Homo sapiens sapiens. The Neanderthals had husky builds and big brains. About 35,000 years ago, Neanderthals disappeared. We don't know why. The other creatures were our ancestors."
I have NO problem teaching this to my kids. We then break open the scriptures and having some dang good conversations. I let the girls ask the questions, and draw their own conclusions.
There are things taught in the public school system that are taught as fact instead of opinion/theory that I take issue with, that is true. Things like global warming being scientific 'fact' is an example. Teaching that the Founders were Deists and all were greedy slave owners is another. Teaching that FDR was a great president that ended the Great Depression, instead of teaching of the great harm he did to individual liberty is yet another. But, the overlying factor was allowing our kids to learn in an environment that allowed them to thrive and give them the ability to make their strengths stronger and their weaknesses strengths. Both my daughters HATED math a year ago, now they LOVE it. They both love learning history, and we often spend extra time discussing history and how it relates to current events.

Subject: Re: Education Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:31 pm

Dude the green font is un readable... I imagine that you called me about every name in the book..... GOOD!!!

Subject: Re: Education Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:04 pm

Alright I pasted your rant in to a readable scenario...

"If that seems radical/extreme to you, I am GLAD. That means we are not following the masses, which is a GOOD thing."

So you can say that you are radical and extreme but when some smart ass like me AMPLIFIES it you suddenly get offended??? What is it Bart a badge of honor or a scarlet letter???

"There are things taught in the public school system that are taught as fact instead of opinion/theory that I take issue with, that is true"

"Teaching that FDR was a great president that ended the Great Depression, instead of teaching of the great harm he did to individual liberty is yet another"

Your opinion right??? Not Propaganda??? FACT???

Look I have enough respect for you that I would never call you a little bitch..
that was in reference to the parents that look at their kids failing report cards
and wonder why the system has failed them. Bailing kids out goes along the same lines. Let kids fail. Let kids learn how to think for themselves. MAKE KIDS STRETCH THEIR COMFORT ZONES. Can ya honestly tell me the kids get that same challenge being schooled by Mom and Dad??? Can ya tell me that your kids learn how to deal with that bully, ask a girl to a dance, learn and see what drugs and alcohol are all about, learn how to recognize bullshit when it's presented to them??? Have their hearts broken?? it's all part of life which is all about education.

Weather you agree or not public education has it's place. Public education has
produced millions of GREAT AMERICANS and will produce millions more!!!

RESPOND OR NOT!!!

WHATEVER

Subject: Re: Education Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:17 pm

voiceofreason wrote:: Look I have enough respect for you that I would never call you a little bitch..
that was in reference to the parents that look at their kids failing report cards
and wonder why the system has failed them. Bailing kids out goes along the same lines. Let kids fail. Let kids learn how to think for themselves. MAKE KIDS STRETCH THEIR COMFORT ZONES. Can ya honestly tell me the kids get that same challenge being schooled by Mom and Dad??? Can ya tell me that your kids learn how to deal with that bully, ask a girl to a dance, learn and see what drugs and alcohol are all about, learn how to recognize bullshit when it's presented to them??? Have their hearts broken?? it's all part of life which is all about education.

I guess I can see how you were calling people in general little bitches and not me directly. So, I accept your explanation.
As for being challenged more at a public school more than from mom and dad; while I can't/won't speak for others, I can promise you my kids are challenged far more by Mom than from the teachers at the local public school. As for learning how to deal with a bully, I think what it taught in regards to bullies and how to deal with them is ALL WRONG in the public school system. I'll give an example: My oldest son is now 20, when he was in the 6th grade he was being bullied by a bigger kid EVERY day. My son talked to his teacher repeatedly with ZERO results. His mother then talked to the Principle with ZERO results. Finally my son talked to me about it, I was a non-custodial parent. I taught him how to defend himself over the weekend. On Monday the kid came up and tried his usual stuff and my son punched him in the sternum, cracking it and sending the kid to the hospital. My son was 4 inches shorter and 50 pounds lighter, and had repeatedly went to those in charge with his care while on school property, yet when my son defended himself he was suspended for TWO WEEKS and was forced to promise to never do such an act again (I said hell no, but his mother agreed to the terms!). Now I ask, what did my son 'learn' from the wise public school system on how to deal with bullies? As for asking/being asked to a dance, my two girls will get plenty of such offers, that I have no doubt of. IN fact, I worry they will get asked far too often and my lectures of what awaits them if they act inappropriately toward my daughter(s) will fall on deaf ears. Also, apparently your reading comprehension is as poor as your spelling abilities, as I clearly mentioned my kids will likely be taking 'advanced' and AP classes at the local public school, as well as most likely playing high school sports. So, they will get plenty of 'exposure' to all those quality things you seem so concerned about like drugs and alcohol, since seem to think I am locking my kids in a bunker and shunning them from human contact other than Mom and I. Thanks for being so concerned for my kids that you want teachers to look out for their welfare instead of their PARENTS!

voiceofreason wrote:: Weather you agree or not public education has it's place. Public education has
produced millions of GREAT AMERICANS and will produce millions more!!!

Your grammar is an example of one reason I wish to avoid a public education for my kids. geek

It has also produced as many/more deadbeats, freeloaders as "GREAT AMERICANS. At one time America's education system was on par/higher than most other nations, but NOT today. Now, thanks to unions and progressives, our public education system is lacking and extremely wasteful. If you are happy with the state of public education, you are in the 'extreme' minority. The system is so poor that a kid with even average intelligence can sleep walk themselves to an A average. I want, no I DEMAND, more from my kids than what the current public education system offers.

voiceofreason wrote:: RESPOND OR NOT!!!

WHATEVER

Nice attitude! Glad to see where I stand with you.