Politics and religion

Well we could spin this around all day but since it is off topic....I will let it drop....

Bishop coyoteslayer please stay on topic

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Bishop coyoteslayer please stay on topic

Sorry, I was pointing out that God and Government are similiar in some ways since the title of this thread has religion as one of the words.

coyoteslayer wrote:

Quote :

Bishop coyoteslayer please stay on topic

Sorry, I was pointing out that God and Government are similiar in some ways since the title of this thread has religion as one of the words.

Just giving you crap Gosh!!! lighten up a little, have some fun!

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Just giving you crap Gosh!!! lighten up a little, have some fun!

Well Gosh I'm so use to the UWN forum where sometimes people cannot lighten up a little.

Ok so we let things exist like gambling/prostitution/homosexuality/Drug use in society. The government doesn't regulate "moral values". Society/churches can still condemn such acts, but we would never force people to comply with moral standards. We can only educate people by saying that if they participate in such things then it can be harmful.

The rights of any one individual do not allow the rights of another individual to be abused.

According to this statement then what about homosexual couples adopting children? Would people force that homosexuality be taught in schools? If homosexuality is accepted in society, but churches are 100% against it then will the churches fall under persecution?

coyoteslayer wrote:

Ok so we let things exist like gambling/prostitution/homosexuality/Drug use in society. The government doesn't regulate "moral values". Society/churches can still condemn such acts, but we would never force people to comply with moral standards. We can only educate people by saying that if they participate in such things then it can be harmful.

The rights of any one individual do not allow the rights of another individual to be abused.

According to this statement then what about homosexual couples adopting children? Would people force that homosexuality be taught in schools? If homosexuality is accepted in society, but churches are 100% against it then will the churches fall under persecution?

Its not a matter of what your personal beliefs are CS....Its a matter of what the Constitution was designed for..... You say IF homosexuality is adopted in society... I have news for you... It already has been. And churches are already falling under persecution. Look at the fallout the LDS church recieved from Prop 8. Look how many Protestant based Bible believing Churches are allowing homosexual pastors. Even the LDS church gave Salt Lake County a green light on the anti discrimination bill against homosexuals. Me personally, I dont believe that a homosexual should be discriminated against in regards to housing because of there moral beliefs but why do we need a law for it? The point Pro and myself are trying to make is it doesnt matter what our personal moral standard is in regards to the constitution. The constitution gives us that right just like it gives people with different moral standards there freedom to act on their vices.......

D&C 101:78–80: I read in D&C That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

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Its not a matter of what your personal beliefs are CS....Its a matter of what the Constitution was designed for..... You say IF homosexuality is adopted in society... I have news for you... It already has been. And churches are already falling under persecution. Look at the fallout the LDS church recieved from Prop 8. Look how many Protestant based Bible believing Churches are allowing homosexual pastors. Even the LDS church gave Salt Lake County a green light on the anti discrimination bill against homosexuals. Me personally, I dont believe that a homosexual should be discriminated against in regards to housing because of there moral beliefs but why do we need a law for it? The point Pro and myself are trying to make is it doesnt matter what our personal moral standard is in regards to the constitution. The constitution gives us that right just like it gives people with different moral standards there freedom to act on their vices.......

Yeah, I'm starting to understand the WHOLE issue and that government shouldn't be regulating any morals standards because it's not the role of the government. Yes, there will always be persecution with any church that tries to teach people that sometimes what they are doing is WRONG.

I just hope that homosexuality is never required to be taught in schools. School is not the place for it just like school is not the place to teach morals.

Well thats the beauty of freedom....If you dont like the idea's being taught in public school then you have the option for private school or home school for your kids... The decline of morals is an end of time prophesy that the Bible refers to in the Book of Revelation.....some say that we are in that time....me being one of them... The constitution is used for a moral stepping ground by both sides... we are turning into a Godless nation with each passing generation.... Sadly I'm afraid its past the point of no return but then thats just my opinion.....

All I have to say about this entire thread is Good Lord.

Can I get a witness?

I gotta say plotty, I do love Baptists. I used to be one, and I swear I still love how they give a speech, or sermon.

shotgunwill wrote:

I gotta say plotty, I do love Baptists. I used to be one, and I swear I still love how they give a speech, or sermon.

? Used to be one......so what would you consider yourself now just out of curiosity..

To satisfy your curiosity, I would call myself a Mormon. I was christened Episcopalian, raised Presbyterian and Baptist, with a splash of Methodist, and have since converted to the LDS church.

In my family, we literally have just about all Christian faiths represented. Interestingly enough religion almost never gets talked about, and we all have about the same political beliefs. How's that for some religious political unity?

shotgunwill wrote:

To satisfy your curiosity, I would call myself a Mormon. I was christened Episcopalian, raised Presbyterian and Baptist, with a splash of Methodist, and have since converted to the LDS church.

In my family, we literally have just about all Christian faiths represented. Interestingly enough religion almost never gets talked about, and we all have about the same political beliefs. How's that for some religious political unity?

That's how religion is viewed outside of UT, just having a religion is enough to unite people in many areas

shotgunwill wrote:

To satisfy your curiosity, I would call myself a Mormon. I was christened Episcopalian, raised Presbyterian and Baptist, with a splash of Methodist, and have since converted to the LDS church.

In my family, we literally have just about all Christian faiths represented. Interestingly enough religion almost never gets talked about, and we all have about the same political beliefs. How's that for some religious political unity?

WOW
Have you studied under a Rabbi as well Thats pretty diverse and Im glad it works out for you and your family...... I'm kind of the bastard prodigal son in my family. I was raised LDS and my father is a Bishop..... Leaving the church made me an apostate in their eyes....

It's terrible that you get cast out for your spiritual beliefs. I had an uncle that wouldn't say a single world to me for about 12 years. It took me being involved in a really serious accident for him to finally speak to me again. That kind of judgement is horse shit IMO.

Yonni wrote:

That's how religion is viewed outside of UT, just having a religion is enough to unite people in many areas

Sorry, but I can't let this comment go without responding to it. I disagree wholeheartedly to your assertion. This is NOT a 'Utah' thing, it happens in all parts of America and in all parts of the world. I could give specific examples, but I believe it was YOU that didn't want to go down this road that YOU steered toward with such a comment.

As for a public school teaching morals, that is just as wrong as the Congress getting involved in morals, and one should NOT have to take their child out of the public school system to avoid having morals taught by GOVERNMENT employees. This is why having the federal government, and to a large extent even the state government, is foolish and is not the proper role of federal/state governments. The federal government should have ZERO say/influence in regards to public education. The state having guidelines for certain minimal requirements is one thing, but the curriculum should be set at the school district level. That way of the local community wants their kids taught about gay penguins they can, but if the local community wants to let the parents teach morals they can. GET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

Ill go down that road...... Politicians cater to the religious majority in the area that they live in....They kind of have to, technically a representative or a senator is supposed to vote for there constituents. The LDS Church is going to have a big say in Utah. The Southern Baptist Convention is going to have a big say in the south. At one time the Catholic Church had a pretty big say in California and The Jewish majority has a lot of pull in the north east. That is just an example of the majority injecting there beliefs and how they view the way government should be run....Is that wrong? ... Under the original constitution technically yes.... Like I said earlier, I don't think the original founders of this nation had anyway to foresee the diversity that this nation would morph into...... This nation was founded by mostly British immigrants that thought alot alike... This nation is 223 years old and in that amount of time people's ideas about life and morals change...... I dont think there is a fix for this problem... The people of this nation are to deeply divided on to many issues... People of the world hate us Americans for 2 reasons.....1 is jealousy and 2 is they think we are arrogant which in a sense we are....we have a my way or the highway mentality and that alone will be our undoing as we cant get along with ourselves let alone the rest of the world.......

plottrunner wrote:

Ill go down that road...... Politicians cater to the religious majority in the area that they live in....They kind of have to, technically a representative or a senator is supposed to vote for there constituents. The LDS Church is going to have a big say in Utah. The Southern Baptist Convention is going to have a big say in the south. At one time the Catholic Church had a pretty big say in California and The Jewish majority has a lot of pull in the north east. That is just an example of the majority injecting there beliefs and how they view the way government should be run....Is that wrong? ... Under the original constitution technically yes.... Like I said earlier, I don't think the original founders of this nation had anyway to foresee the diversity that this nation would morph into...... This nation was founded by mostly British immigrants that thought alot alike... This nation is 223 years old and in that amount of time people's ideas about life and morals change...... I dont think there is a fix for this problem... The people of this nation are to deeply divided on to many issues...

I have to agree with this. I think the whole point should be that if we elect religious or "moral" people, that they shouldn't support or propose laws that would subjugate those of differing morals or religion. This is where it gets bad. When one set of morals is pushed on another.

And if you are truly worried about the LDS church having too much say, and the current percentages and studies are right, give Utah about 20 years, and there will be more non-LDS in office than LDS.

Maybe you miss read what I posted.... I am not worried at all about the LDS church having to much say..... My worry is that this country will never unify and become the great nation that it once was.... I'm not LDS but there values are very similar to mine. The LDS church has some of the highest moral values of any religion and i commend them for that. If people dont like the moral value set by the majority in the area that they live, they have the right to move... This whole thread is about the majority injecting there values into law... That is technically unconstitutional but for me, in my eyes it makes the area I live in a better place. On a political scale it can be annoying just because I get tired of individual laws telling us what we can and cant do, but I have lived in Utah my whole life. I feel that my kids get a great education in public school, that the low crime rate here makes it a safe place to live, and the we have such a diverse area with plenty to do. We can go from alpine skiing in the winter to water skiing at Powell in the summer. I have 6 lakes to fish in within 45 min of my house. I dont have my 2nd amendment rights infringed on. I even get to gamble...LOL every year I enter the state run lottery to draw a tag to hunt......and once in a while i win...... The quality of life we have in Utah is much better than alot of other states in the Union. Is that because we are smarter? No thats because of the moral agenda in this state.

I'm new here and I believe that our country is as great as it has ever been, aside from the fiscal atrocities that have occurred in the past 30 years or so. This is not to say that there aren't many things that can be improved, but to me, the relative enlightenment is exactly the result and intention of what the constitution represents.

I agree, less government, especially on a federal level. The less government we have, the closer we are to a more natural state. It's Darwinian in a sense, but I believe that adhering to natural code is what will keep the world, much less the US in a place of harmony. Argue religious semantics all you want, but your results will always be the same. What is the saying about doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results?

Elohim wrote:

Argue religious semantics all you want, but your results will always be the same. What is the saying about doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results?

Amen. Wise words.

I have to ask, what's with the choice of user-name? Pretty tongue in cheek, wouldn't you say?

The second paragraph of my last post was not directed at you plotty, but for those that complain about it. Sorry for not clarifying that a little better.