Politics and religion

coyoteslayer wrote:

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the whole point here is that its against the constitution when we pass a law forcing our moral standard on someone else........

Well it quite impossible to pass a law without forcing people to vote on their moral standards.

Not really.....How much say does that average joe have in laws that are passed...Most laws passed anymore have special interests all over them... Most laws are passed because of money and financial gain and have nothing to do with moral issues..... The few laws that are passed with a moral agenda are never voted on by the public except in the rare case like prop 8....... Legalizing abortion came down to a supreme court decision that was voted on by 9 non elected officials.... the supreme court is the final say in any law that is passed.... they are supposed to vote according to the constitutionality of the law but how often do they vote on there moral standard instead........

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I was about to point this out, but Plotty beat me to it. So CS the question remains, how far does religion get intertwined with politics? How far is it appropriate for the government to regulate the morals of society?

It's not the governments role to regulate the morals of society, but it's OUR role as people of society to regulate the morals of society. We elect leaders who we hope will stand for our values.

The government is.....WE THE PEOPLE. The problem is the government is taken over a role that doesn't belong to them because they are dismissing the will of the majority of the people. Example: Healthcare. WE didn't want government run healthcare.

Religion and Politics get intertwined every time we vote. People try tor pick leaders that share good moral standards. People always vote against abortion because of religion.

coyoteslayer wrote:

Well it quite impossible to pass a law without forcing people to vote on their moral standards.

No it isn't! Just simply pass laws that are based on the Constitution, and NOTHING else!

coyoteslayer wrote:

Quote :

I was about to point this out, but Plotty beat me to it. So CS the question remains, how far does religion get intertwined with politics? How far is it appropriate for the government to regulate the morals of society?

It's not the governments role to regulate the morals of society, but it's OUR role as people of society to regulate the morals of society. We elect leaders who we hope will stand for our values.

The government is.....WE THE PEOPLE. The problem is the government is taken over a role that doesn't belong to them because they are dismissing the will of the majority of the people. Example: Healthcare. WE didn't want government run healthcare.

Your right I didn't want gov health care but apparently there were a lot of people that did....and if they didn't then a whole bunch of politicians are going to be on unemployment come November....... The point of this whole thread is the role of the gov to regulate the morals of society....gov health care is a whole other can of worms and has nothing to do with this topic........ The will of the majority of the people comes down to the laws that are passed by the politicians that the people elect.....Do to the fact that in 2008 this country sent a trainload of democrats to Washington that voted for this crap I would say the will of the people was met... It sucks for you and me because we are no longer in the majority so our will is not being met........

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No it isn't! Just simply pass laws that are based on the Constitution, and NOTHING else!

Is not allowing same-sex marriage and abortion AGAINST the Constitution? How can people vote on these issues without going by their moral values?

coyoteslayer wrote:

Is not allowing same-sex marriage and abortion AGAINST the Constitution? How can people vote on these issues without going by their moral values?

That is the rub, voting against same-sex marriage is NOT based on Constitutional Principles. It is forcing ones morals on another. As much as I personally oppose gay marriage, I will never again vote against it being legal, but I will continue to oppose it. As for abortion, it involves innocent humans, therefore it isn't strictly a moral issue, but rather an issue of protecting even the littlest humans rights.

proutdoors wrote:

coyoteslayer wrote:

Is not allowing same-sex marriage and abortion AGAINST the Constitution? How can people vote on these issues without going by their moral values?

That is the rub, voting against same-sex marriage is NOT based on Constitutional Principles. It is forcing ones morals on another. As much as I personally oppose gay marriage, I will never again vote against it being legal, but I will continue to oppose it. As for abortion, it involves innocent humans, therefore it isn't strictly a moral issue, but rather an issue of protecting even the littlest humans rights.

WOW hey BERG deploy gutswat...Pro has been kidnapped.....

coyoteslayer wrote:

Well places like Utah then Gambling/Prostitution/Drug use is illegal, therefore we have passed laws that force morality on people. Are you saying these should be legal here in the state of Utah because is unconstitutional because people do not have their individual liberty?

Yes, I am saying that gambling/prostitution/drug use should be legal. But, and it is a big BUT, the predominant church and the followers of said church should teach/preach the harms of participating is such vices. The LDS church has the Word of Wisdom, that spells out how to be healthy. One of the tenets of the WoW is refraining from alcohol. Yet, here in Mormonland alcohol is not prohibited and the sun still rises in the east every morning. Denying one the ability to chose for themselves whether to put harmful substances into their bodies is denying them individual freedom. As I have mentioned many times, where/how do you draw a line it what is 'allowed' to be a choice and what isn't? There are progressives in this country now trying to limit how much salt you can have in your diet. As absurd as I am sure you find that, I ask how is that different than limiting the amount of narcotics I want to put in my system, or whether I wish to gamble my retirement on the outcome of the NBA Finals?

coyoteslayer wrote:

It's not the governments role to regulate the morals of society, but it's OUR role as people of society to regulate the morals of society. We elect leaders who we hope will stand for our values.

That's a very ironic statement to say that it is not the governments role, but in the end, after they are elected, they do have the right to regulate morals. That is convoluted logic. Which is it? Are we a democracy, where the majority can ensure the government enforces their morale, or are we a republic, with a constitutional framework that protects individual liberties against the will of the majority?

coyoteslayer wrote:

The government is.....WE THE PEOPLE.

To a limited extent this is true. We the People cannot override the constitution.

coyoteslayer wrote:

The problem is the government is taken over a role that doesn't belong to them because they are dismissing the will of the majority of the people. Example: Healthcare. WE didn't want government run healthcare.

I'm glad I live in a republic that protects my individual liberties. I like knowing at the end of the day that the Constitution protects my rights, such as my right to bear arms, even if the majority of we the people have a problem with it.

coyoteslayer wrote:

People always vote against abortion because of religion.

No they don't.

cs, I am saying people can use their morals when voting, but NOT when they enact laws that force their morals on others. Elect righteous people, just don't demand they legislate based on their religious beliefs, but instead have them legislate based on individual liberties. After all, it is individual liberty that is at the heart of Christianity and certainly the heart of Mormonism. When we stand to be judged by our Maker, we won't be asked what the society we live in did/didn't do, we will be judged on what you/I as individuals have done/not done. Progressives and socialists believe in the collective, libertarians and lovers of liberty believe in the individual.

proutdoors wrote:

cs, I am saying people can use their morals when voting, but NOT when they enact laws that force their morals on others. Elect righteous people, just don't demand they legislate based on their religious beliefs, but instead have them legislate based on individual liberties. After all, it is individual liberty that is at the heart of Christianity and certainly the heart of Mormonism. When we stand to be judged by our Maker, we won't be asked what the society we live in did/didn't do, we will be judged on what you/I as individuals have done/not done. Progressives and socialists believe in the collective, libertarians and lovers of liberty believe in the individual.

Thats the best thing I have read all day.........

coyoteslayer wrote:

People still have their agency because we can either choose to do good things or bad things, but people must be willing to accept the consequences for their actions.

But many of those consequences your are alluding to, are incorrectly imposed by a government that has overstepped its boundaries. What you are calling agency, I call coercion, and yes it is a bit disturbing that you can't see the difference.

Example:
A muslim women can choose to go against her societies norms by removing her head-dress, and try to get an education, but she would be beaten at home, have cruel and unusual punishments imposed on her by her government, and shunned from her religion which would cut her off from any networks available in her society, if she even lives. Those harsh, tyrannical punishments are coercive measures used on her by the tyrants that rule her life, yet using your thought process, she still has the agency to choose her course..

According to your logic, we should have followed satan's plan before this world, and we would have had the "free-agency" to follow his dictates or be destroyed...

So was the Lord a Socialist, a Progressive or a Libertarian??

voiceofreason wrote:

So was the Lord a Socialist, a Progressive or a Libertarian??

None of the Above.......If you believe in God and study the bible then you should know that he is sinless and In his perfect world that will come to pass.....There will be no politics and everyone that is with him will see things his way in a perfect sense.... His perfect world is summed up pretty well in the sermon on the mount.... Matthew 5&6 pretty much puts it in black and white.....

voiceofreason wrote:

So was the Lord a Socialist, a Progressive or a Libertarian??

libertarian!

proutdoors wrote:

cs, I am saying people can use their morals when voting, but NOT when they enact laws that force their morals on others. Elect righteous people, just don't demand they legislate based on their religious beliefs, but instead have them legislate based on individual liberties. After all, it is individual liberty that is at the heart of Christianity and certainly the heart of Mormonism. When we stand to be judged by our Maker, we won't be asked what the society we live in did/didn't do, we will be judged on what you/I as individuals have done/not done. Progressives and socialists believe in the collective, libertarians and lovers of liberty believe in the individual.

Ok I agree on some things. I agree that a judge shouldn't make decisions on his own personal beliefs, but he needs to uphold to the Constitution and nothing more.

I'm just against abortion/prostitution/gambling/drug use because I see it hurting society.

Yeah I will be judged for all of my own actions likewise with everyone else.

voiceofreason wrote:

So was the Lord a Socialist, a Progressive or a Libertarian??

Why, a libertarian of course...

coyoteslayer wrote:

I'm just against abortion/prostitution/gambling/drug use because I see it hurting society.

I am against them for the same reason, but I do NOT think it is the proper role of government to get involved in such moral issues. Check that, I KNOW it is not the proper role of government to delve into the religious realm.

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Love your neighbor
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

SOCIALIST PROGRESSIVE OR LIBERTARIAN???

voiceofreason wrote:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Love your neighbor
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

SOCIALIST PROGRESSIVE OR LIBERTARIAN???

I still stand by my statement of none of the above....I refuse to stereotype my God who is perfect and sinless...

PLOTT gets it!!!! Now who else???

Bart, you say that your in favor of homosexuality because you won't vote against it.....so are you saying that the LDS church and many other churches were in the wrong when they fought against Prop 8?